Perhaps there’s a fear of the non-perfect origins of the great gedolim? Perhaps it’s a fear of things they can’t control . Or to be a little more extreme, maybe it’s a fear of the recognization that the reason why they’re not creating gedolim in their schools today is that they’re not willing to allow things that are not controllable and that are not in the box?
Well said! In general i think it might be a combo that the mature people leave yeshiva to get on with life and that getting on with life makes you stop seeing the world as a fossilized teenager.
there is no question that you are correct. There is another important factor. The world of secular education demands "deliverables". It is not enough to learn and even know a sugia. The secular concept requires organization, definition in ways that, for some stupid reason, are largely ignored in the vast seas of Yeshivas. Where that kind of discipline is demanded, the yeshiva is seen as compromising. There is no such thing as selective excellence and until we teach our students that fact and infuse them with a curiosity for life and all that it holds, what you wrote will sadly remain scarce in the greater Yeshiva world. But then, I must say that with efforts like Dirshu, that demand clarity and vast knowledge, maybe the ideas are catching on.
I think this phenomenon, to whatever extent it is true, is driven by selection. Iluim and geonim are generally more open minded and independent thinkers than the masses. It's not that studying Shakespeare helps you with understanding a Rambam, it's that the people who are most likely to understand the Ramban will also have broader interests.
By 'this phenomenon' I mean that Rav Shach observed that talmidim from תיכונים who came to Ponevezh were more focused, organized and conscientious than the YFB.
Rav Shach explained this phenomenon very similar to the way the OP explained it. I will try to find the exact pg. number.
To me it it seems clear that the current yeshiva movement sacrifices exceptionalism, aaccountability, responsibility, accuracy etc. so as to maintain a mass movement.
https://chotam.org.il/media/37347/demography-of-religiosity.pdf) it seems they have a point. But there is much to be improved. Education needs to be made accountable and and individualized. At the same time if we wish to continue to be a pronatal it should not be expensive. This is a hard balance to maintain. I think these types of challenges are the core challenges of the 'yeshiva movement'.
I think being “pronatal,” but in a healthy way, is a core challenge of American orthodox Judaism in general today. The refusal to deal with this issue in the MO world, has forced people into families that are too small. While pretending it’s not an issue having a kid every year has caused so much damage to so many people in the frummer world. Obviously the first thing to point is that the big money in the donor world should be going first and for to supporting education, moving the onus away from parents, whether this means hardball political fighting to get state funds or funding schools before every other cool cause worthy cause. The Europeans have mortgaged their future by not having kids in order to enjoy their present. By to have a future, a growing one, or if you’re worried about disasters, one that just survives, we need kids. There is certainly a burkian sense in Judaism of a responsibility to the past, the present, and the future that could be spoken about here too.
It doesn't seem to me that people are dead inside in yeshivish Judaism more than other Judaism.
But definitely yeshivish Judaism has much to improve.
And yes, low attrition and pronatalism does some to be very important to God. To what extent? Please tell me you thoughts. I just named my stack Pronatalist Judaism (changed from Rationalistcharedism) because I want to have some serious conversation about this. Please share your thoughts.
For sure. What I was saying regarding people being dead inside is connected to perhaps to if your community “builds walls” that are so high that people cannot get out, then low attrition may not mean much. Perhaps there are many people who are suffering inside, who are “dead” inside, but are stuck in the community? . Is that a spiritual success? Is that a success that God is proud of ? It’s an interesting conversation perhaps
>Perhaps there are many people who are suffering inside, who are “dead” inside, but are stuck in the community?
Again, do you have any reason to believe that is the case in Charedi Judaism more than in other Judaism?
I would say the walls around the community have never been thinner, especially outside of Israel (and in Israel, I think the Israeli government gets much of the credit for those walls).
There are even organizations (e.g. Makom and lhavdil Footsteps) to help people who wish to leave.
Does the Torah itself not advocate strong walls around the religion and community?
And finally, isn't it true that Charedi Jews are the happiest people in the world as Ash just posted?
I don't know if you followed but recently there was an uproar about a group of people in Lakewood who meetly weekly to eat pepperoni pizza and bragged about it online. It seemed to me that for these people the real 'wall around the community' is precisely the beauty and strength of the familial and communal connections here which are rare anywhere else. Why else would someone stay in Lakewood which is fast becoming one of the most expensive frum communities in the world?
Sorry, you deserve a longer response, but I only have a few minutes now. I think it’s pretty obvious that the walls around haredi Judaism are higher than of any other form of Judaism. They were clearly thiner 75 years ago and before that when so many left the fold. I would suggest making a difference between Walls that keep the world out versus Walls that keep the people in. I think the torag calls for the walls to keep the world out to some extent. Somehow, in recent decades, these walls have become more about keeping people in. This is how you have this weird situation where people know all the crude stuff but nothing worthwhile or just not crude from the outside world. Somebody use some pole that Maroof paid panels politics to put out claiming that Harry are the happiest people in the world is laughable besides the obvious problem with that quality of research (paid polling attracts who?, what is the reliance on Internet pulling for haredim? To charedim see c the need to say they’re happy, more than other communities, obviously, etc.) it suffers from a bit more philosophical problem. If the poll came out that actually secular people are the happiest people in the world, would that be an argument for becoming secular? I did not hear about that pepperoni story, but to me that exposes how far we are from being a Godly people, and a holy nation of priests. when we no longer strive for truth, but rather it’s all about staying religious for the family connections and the lifestyle? That’s Judaism? That’s God?
The other thing I about the pepperoni people, is that, to me it’s perhaps the sign of the end of the Lakewood civilization. It is a Zweigian fin de siecle thing ( although of course there is something low rent bloomsbury here as well) .
This is why Making of a Godol was banned (presumably to make sure no one else becomes a Godol).
that is interesting. Are you joking or serious? :)
Semi-joking. But it was banned so people shouldn't know that Gedolim learnt secular subjects. It was "disrespectful" to them, because they moved on.
Perhaps there’s a fear of the non-perfect origins of the great gedolim? Perhaps it’s a fear of things they can’t control . Or to be a little more extreme, maybe it’s a fear of the recognization that the reason why they’re not creating gedolim in their schools today is that they’re not willing to allow things that are not controllable and that are not in the box?
That's what I think.
https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/the-rise-of-the-radicalizing-rebbeim?r=33pit&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
And
https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/radicalizing-rebbeim-revisited?r=33pit&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Well said! In general i think it might be a combo that the mature people leave yeshiva to get on with life and that getting on with life makes you stop seeing the world as a fossilized teenager.
Reb Ahron Lopiansky quotes this idea from Rav Shach (!!) in his sefer Ben Torah for life.
good call!
there is no question that you are correct. There is another important factor. The world of secular education demands "deliverables". It is not enough to learn and even know a sugia. The secular concept requires organization, definition in ways that, for some stupid reason, are largely ignored in the vast seas of Yeshivas. Where that kind of discipline is demanded, the yeshiva is seen as compromising. There is no such thing as selective excellence and until we teach our students that fact and infuse them with a curiosity for life and all that it holds, what you wrote will sadly remain scarce in the greater Yeshiva world. But then, I must say that with efforts like Dirshu, that demand clarity and vast knowledge, maybe the ideas are catching on.
that makes a lot of sense! I imagine it is no coincide that dirshu was founded by a secularly educated businessman
I think this phenomenon, to whatever extent it is true, is driven by selection. Iluim and geonim are generally more open minded and independent thinkers than the masses. It's not that studying Shakespeare helps you with understanding a Rambam, it's that the people who are most likely to understand the Ramban will also have broader interests.
Another point is that this is exactly why Ash has a point https://daastorah.substack.com/p/radicalizing-rebbeim-revisited
By stifling other interests we are stifling our best and brightest. And yes, I think this can cause tremendous harm and OTD.
By 'this phenomenon' I mean that Rav Shach observed that talmidim from תיכונים who came to Ponevezh were more focused, organized and conscientious than the YFB.
Rav Shach explained this phenomenon very similar to the way the OP explained it. I will try to find the exact pg. number.
To me it it seems clear that the current yeshiva movement sacrifices exceptionalism, aaccountability, responsibility, accuracy etc. so as to maintain a mass movement.
Is that a bad thing? Why should it be? When you look it numbers like these (https://www.shoresh.institute/publication.html?id=Pub034 Figure 15 pg. 14
https://chotam.org.il/media/37347/demography-of-religiosity.pdf) it seems they have a point. But there is much to be improved. Education needs to be made accountable and and individualized. At the same time if we wish to continue to be a pronatal it should not be expensive. This is a hard balance to maintain. I think these types of challenges are the core challenges of the 'yeshiva movement'.
I think being “pronatal,” but in a healthy way, is a core challenge of American orthodox Judaism in general today. The refusal to deal with this issue in the MO world, has forced people into families that are too small. While pretending it’s not an issue having a kid every year has caused so much damage to so many people in the frummer world. Obviously the first thing to point is that the big money in the donor world should be going first and for to supporting education, moving the onus away from parents, whether this means hardball political fighting to get state funds or funding schools before every other cool cause worthy cause. The Europeans have mortgaged their future by not having kids in order to enjoy their present. By to have a future, a growing one, or if you’re worried about disasters, one that just survives, we need kids. There is certainly a burkian sense in Judaism of a responsibility to the past, the present, and the future that could be spoken about here too.
Is mass movement God’s goal? What if people are dead inside?
It doesn't seem to me that people are dead inside in yeshivish Judaism more than other Judaism.
But definitely yeshivish Judaism has much to improve.
And yes, low attrition and pronatalism does some to be very important to God. To what extent? Please tell me you thoughts. I just named my stack Pronatalist Judaism (changed from Rationalistcharedism) because I want to have some serious conversation about this. Please share your thoughts.
For sure. What I was saying regarding people being dead inside is connected to perhaps to if your community “builds walls” that are so high that people cannot get out, then low attrition may not mean much. Perhaps there are many people who are suffering inside, who are “dead” inside, but are stuck in the community? . Is that a spiritual success? Is that a success that God is proud of ? It’s an interesting conversation perhaps
Great point. But if they stay in the community, you have a chance with the next generation.
for sure! Or they are just waiting to flee..
>Perhaps there are many people who are suffering inside, who are “dead” inside, but are stuck in the community?
Again, do you have any reason to believe that is the case in Charedi Judaism more than in other Judaism?
I would say the walls around the community have never been thinner, especially outside of Israel (and in Israel, I think the Israeli government gets much of the credit for those walls).
There are even organizations (e.g. Makom and lhavdil Footsteps) to help people who wish to leave.
Does the Torah itself not advocate strong walls around the religion and community?
And finally, isn't it true that Charedi Jews are the happiest people in the world as Ash just posted?
I don't know if you followed but recently there was an uproar about a group of people in Lakewood who meetly weekly to eat pepperoni pizza and bragged about it online. It seemed to me that for these people the real 'wall around the community' is precisely the beauty and strength of the familial and communal connections here which are rare anywhere else. Why else would someone stay in Lakewood which is fast becoming one of the most expensive frum communities in the world?
Sorry, you deserve a longer response, but I only have a few minutes now. I think it’s pretty obvious that the walls around haredi Judaism are higher than of any other form of Judaism. They were clearly thiner 75 years ago and before that when so many left the fold. I would suggest making a difference between Walls that keep the world out versus Walls that keep the people in. I think the torag calls for the walls to keep the world out to some extent. Somehow, in recent decades, these walls have become more about keeping people in. This is how you have this weird situation where people know all the crude stuff but nothing worthwhile or just not crude from the outside world. Somebody use some pole that Maroof paid panels politics to put out claiming that Harry are the happiest people in the world is laughable besides the obvious problem with that quality of research (paid polling attracts who?, what is the reliance on Internet pulling for haredim? To charedim see c the need to say they’re happy, more than other communities, obviously, etc.) it suffers from a bit more philosophical problem. If the poll came out that actually secular people are the happiest people in the world, would that be an argument for becoming secular? I did not hear about that pepperoni story, but to me that exposes how far we are from being a Godly people, and a holy nation of priests. when we no longer strive for truth, but rather it’s all about staying religious for the family connections and the lifestyle? That’s Judaism? That’s God?
The other thing I about the pepperoni people, is that, to me it’s perhaps the sign of the end of the Lakewood civilization. It is a Zweigian fin de siecle thing ( although of course there is something low rent bloomsbury here as well) .
Chicken and egg? Sibah and simonWe see many illiuim who never make it to be top draw and plenty of them are known for lack of broad interests
This is fantastic. Lubavitcher Rebbe comes to mind
yeah, makes a lot of sense! people miss that and just tell strange stories about his knowledge of the material coming from the ether